Posts by mama bear

8

Still doing Book studies before you left?

by truthsearcher in

jw
friends

i just wondered how many of you were still doing books studies with potential converts and door to door work when you had already decided the organisation was not the truth?

how did this feel?

did you alter your approach?

mama bear

-- I just wondered how many of you were still doing books studies with potential converts and door to door work when you had already decided the organisation was NOT the truth? How did this feel? Did you alter your approach? Would the potential converts have known that something was up or would this have been too dangerous. (This is me wishfully thinking that the JWs who come over to "convert" me might be having doubts...) --

Nah...in November of 1997 I had a meltdown at the kingdom hall in the 'blue room' with two elders. Went home, was devastated..took me a long time to pull through. Changed congregations, was on and off at meetings for the next year and then finally just quit going. However, prior to November 1997 I had been auxillary pioneering on a continuos basis for about a year trying to build up hours, studies and stamina to regular pioneer. My application allegedly got lost in the mail. There was a changing of the guard. The new guard took exception to my fashion sense...yeah...the fashion police...I took exception to their wanting me to look like their mousy wives and after everything was said and done my heart was literally broken, my spirit crushed and my will to continue on dissipated! As I have said here before, I wound up in a deep depression in the fetal position on our bed for awhile and when I pulled myself out of it I hated everyone in authority from God down to the elders and wanted nothing to do with any of them. Due to family obligations however we stuck it out for another year. But one day, one Sunday we looked at each other and said what are we doing and spent the day at home. The following Thursday hubby had number two talk..he had been demoted to 'count your blessings you still have school privileges so be happy with the #2 talk' status...he gave a resounding reading...actually the best ever! In fact, it was so stirring the school overseer spewed out accolades in abundance. However, when my hubby was finished with his talk, he dramatically closed his Bible, looked up at the entire audience, said 'thank you' motioned to me with his hand to pick up our things, stepped down the 3 steps to our row, reached out for my hand and walked me down the aisle and out the back door and asked me how it felt to never have to go there again! I was so speechless and so blown away we went out and celebrated just laughing our collective hineys off with the faces and you know the things they would be saying about this for a long time to come. Not to mention the great things the school overseer was saying and it would be the last talk! I mean . that number 2 talk was dynamite....and let's face it..they are hard to make exciting...but his dramatic presence both in poise and in style...my heart went pitter patter....we have not gone back...never will...and to this day my husband cracks me up routinely when he quips something out of the blue that is all JW life related...catches me sideways sometimes and I lose it laughing so hard. What a life we lived..

13

Second school "in the back." Is this the JW version of the short bus?

by MinisterAmos in

some congos stage a second school in the baby room while the main hall is used for the big boy school.. i've noticed (and voiced to the school overseer last night) that only the "popular" jws are used in the main school while the ones with problems always get stuck in the back.

he confirmed that this was planned, and that it was to avoid embarrassing certain brothers and sisters who might be uncomfortable in front of a larger group.

seems pretty loving to me as long as you don't mind that the dozen moms with 30 or so kids have to wait outside in the cold periodically because the room built and designed specifically for them is in use.. actually if they can't stand listening to some people and feel the need to stick them in the back rather than give them full participation rights, then maybe it's time to re-think the whole deal.. forgot: he referred to the main hall school as "the a team".

mama bear

-- The second school is for congregations who have so many students that it takes too long for them to have a talk assignment and have a continuous learning experience. If its too long between talk assignments, the counsel and training is lost. The theory is that students will have assignments more often. Yes, it is advantageous for some who are shy to have their talks in the second school. We rotated everyone evenly, one in the front, next in the back and so on. It wasn't second string or the short bus. It was a second school. Also, The second school is dismissed after the first three parts on the school. THere is no seperate instruction talk of Bible highlights, these are in the front only. The second school is for student talks only. That's how its done everywhere unless there are two congregations in one building, maybe then there are two schools. Logically that would follow if there are two congregations.

There's no mystery here or segregation according to abilities. One side effect is that many who are shy about being in front of a large group insist on giving talks in the second school or they wont be in the school Often that accomadation is made. I conducted the silly thing for quite awhile. --

And this is how it was in all congregations we attended. However, the last one had such a low attendance with the consequent high absentee rate creating a cancellation of the second school most Thursday evenings and the talks in the front school were mostly impromptu, not even substitute because there was never notice the assigned student was not going to show. It was hilarious. I must have gone 2 years without ever having a counsel point because all my talks were impromptu and the school overseer felt to schedule me to give a talk would take me off his pool of talent for the impromptu. Hard to find anyone to ask when the Instruction Talk is being given if they would take the #3 talk up front because the student never showed up at the Hall. How many times our family were the only ones on the platform? Hubby giving Instruction talk...my daughter or granddaughter doing the number 3 and me doing a number 4. Even the School overseer was family! Our son in law!

9

Can't pray for disfellowship person

by GramblingMan in

i just learn from my wife and step-kids that you (jw) can't pray for someone that is disfellowshipped.

is this true, if so can someone explain and show scriptures as to how they apply it?

mama bear

--- I just learn from my wife and step-kids that you (JW) can't pray for someone that is disfellowshipped. Is this true, if so can someone explain and show scriptures as to how they apply it? ---

While this is indeed the truth from the standpoint of those who are active Witnesses the core problem does not exist in the refusal to pray for df'd or da'd ones so much as the existence and implementation of their particular version of disfellowshipping! Their doctrinal stand on this issue is, like most of the rest of their doctrine, quite out of sync with the Bible. Most non JW eyes can look at all the verses discussing the disfellowshipping of an individual and follow Paul's exhortation quite easily. Yet, the leadership of the WTS in it's usual 'controlling' fashion has sought to foment an erroneous interpretation and to foist this upon the rank and file membership who -- curiously -- can do nothing to challenge this doctrine without throwing themselves on the disfellowshipping sword for disagreeing with WT Doctrine. So, if the adaptation of this doctrine is based in incorrect understanding and application then everything associated with this teaching is as erroneous.

Surely the prodigal son serves as incontrovertible evidence the WTS' disfellowshipping policy is altogether bogus!

Who among us who had a close member of the family df'd did not pray to God about their 'loved one'? Seriously. What is done up in your head is not heard or seen by another living soul beyond you and God and no one can really legislate what your private thoughts and prayers can be. Some of us retained enough of ourselves through the whole brain washing process to be able to be true to ourselves if even in quiet prayer. Admittedly the first few years I was a Witness I treated a df'd person as though they were lepers. However, with maturity in age and life experience and knowing that everyone makes mistakes the mellowing of my belief where this was concerned happened as well. Actually, for the last couple of years I was an active Witness I made no bones about encouraging the df'd ones who made it to the meetings, even though I was a lowly sister, and one in particular I gave routine hugs to because his whole dfing was a sham! This kid, who was then 18 and baptised and wanting to be engaged to a sister who's father was an elder, was asked to confess to our body that when he was 15 he had a sexual encounter with a 'worldly' girl to which he never confessed. He was not baptised at that time. When he became engaged he told his fiance' who then thought her elder dad should know. So, the elder dad informed the 18 yr old boy to go and confess. He did. He was very remorseful. Sincerely so. However, because the girl was a 'worldly' girl and she knew he claimed to be a Witness they just canned the kid and held the line on his being reinstated in a year even though that restriction went out the door decades ago! We were close to the family and this kid was just such a truly sweet young man. He took his pill. He went to all meetings dutifully, never forgetting he wanted to get married. He sucked it up and took the humililiation. He did his year and the body took their time deciding to reinstate him. But, he was reinstated and he did get married and they moved. I have no idea how they are doing. His family were strong Witnesses though each of the siblings had been df'd at least once. I just could not abide the whole thing thinking it was a very heavy handed abuse of power and done solely to exert power over the kid. It is stuff like this ... the real scars that really exists among those of us who were there and retired as veterans of that lifestyle that keep us coming back to share so that those who find themselves facing the inevitable dilemna of whether to stay or go can see that we have all been able to get on with our lives as far as living them are concerned. Like anything though with such devastating consequences, a need for a strong support group is necessary so that healing can happen. Grief can happen. Life can happen.

If you know someone who is disfellowshipped I can't think of another soul who would be in more dire need of your prayers! Please pray for whatever guilt they carry around in their hearts deposited there by these folks will dissipate and they can have a clear mind and heart to make the decisions in life they need to make to deal with their changed circumstances. Hopefully, they will avail themselves of the loving hearts here and find that returning for some sort of absolution by the elders is not necessary!

29

What the hell is the WTS saying about evolution now?

by Santisimo in

did anyone read the recent wts "special article" about creation and evolution?

i read it and fell of my freaking seat.

get this, the wts now believes (and yes, they want everyone to agree or else) that god created the universe billions of years ago and that nothing was created in six days as shown in genesis!.

mama bear

--- Actually the Society has been saying for atleast 30 that the earth and universe is billions of years old. It is funny you just caught it. ---

I don't know...I believe the Aid To Bible Understanding still maintained their former timeline concepts and tenets. I think the change came with the release of the Insight Books and the corrections within those two books to certain doctrinal tenets Ray Franz had written for the Aid Book which fell out of favor in the 'aftermath' of Ray's alleged 'apostasy'. For the FDS the vacuum created some need for rearticulation of certain doctrine. As I recall, the timeline was one of those things. They readjusted their thinking to allowing that the creative days may each be different periods of time but they still held that man was created 6000 yrs ago. It was during the 1975 debacle in the year leading up to it that Fred Franz in his many 'mini' special talks where he explained how the 6000 yrs of man was drawing to a close and with a thousand years for the return to perfection and 6000 it added up to their belief in the 7000 yr creative day. His only issue at that time in calling a specific date [not so much year] was that he was unsure how long Adam was alive naming the animals and realizing he was the only one with out a mate in so much as lapsed time. So far as Fred Franz was concerned on October 4/5 of 1975 we entered into that 'unsure' time which would have to pass before the 1000 yr reign began. Some 3 decades later we are left to believe that perfect or not it took Adam a bit of time to catch on to being the only one without a mate.

At any rate, I think the change or shift or 'adjustment' in the 'brightening light' on the creative day time line happened after the ouster of Ray Franz. I know there were articles written featuring this change in subtle discussion and like all other things...because the leadership believes so little of their members -- after all how can you possibly respect anyone you can so easily mislead -- and believes the rank and file live in the 'perma frost' zone of their 'brains' they no doubt felt they could slip in with slight of hand the changes and no one would really catch on. If they say it enough times the same way the masses recollect it as the rote or repetitive latest doctrine states and assume they were distracted by life when the change happened. Because the doctrine is so twisted many folks live in shut off mode not wishing to comment at meetings or talk much at the doors for fear someone will ask of them to explain their doctrine and because it is so convoluted and indefensible by the normal and rational mind they just vest themselves as minimally as necessary. I mean who of us can follow the 607 BCE talk? Gadz...the dates of all the downfalls of all the world powers, all ancient history, and remembering kings and rulers whose names no one could ever really pronounce...

17

How many eJW forums do you belong to ?

by vitty in

jw
friends

i am registered to about maybe 4 but only look at the others quickly, to see whats going on.

i usually spend my time here.. the big thing i started to notice is that it is always the same dozen or so peeps, i couldnt see the point in going from one forum to the other as they are all talking about the same thing (or poster).

so if you go regular to other forums how do you keep up with all the in fighting (which really puts me off) and the continual banter between the select few.. what do you get out of other ex jw forums that you dont get from here ?????.

mama bear

Just this one. Don't have time to be active in many. Most of the same ones populate all of them and you catch up with old friends when you figure out who they are.

I probably know many of you from other forums over the years....but it is always nice to just hang with friends for a little while.

20

The pressures of Jehovah's Witness life

by The wanderer in

jw
friends

the pressures of jehovah's witness life monday was set aside to study for the tuesday night.

meeting.

wednesday was study night for the theo-.

mama bear

Thank you Wanderer for posting the queries..part of the self examination we go through no doubt to pull things living inside we want to get out.

Questions to Consider

How did you deal with the pressures of Witness life? I just did. Considered it as par for the coursel Thrived in it most of the time. Seemed important to be so busy doing something that seemed so important and right. Can't do too much for God ya know!! Finally came to a crashing realization that if after decades of doing doing doing all the danged elders could find to complain about was fashion and to hold back privileges as a result of their own personal opinions then it was simply impossible to please God. I had given my all, given up way more than anyone beforehand could have convinced me I would and no matter what we did it was simply never enough or good enough. I wound up in a fetal position for a few days never going out of my home, licking my wounds and feeling very sorry for myself and nursing a huge hate for God. Then, Christmas season rolled around and I had been more and more involved with disgruntled former witnesses online and my eyes started 'seeing' statements and my mind started letting them in. Like, God and the Org were not one and the same. Finally..,ya just leave and that is how you deal with pressure. Ya just leave and say ENOUGH ALREADY.
How did we keep up this pace for years on end? FEAR! Fear of death both real and spiritual. FEAR of being labeled by others in the congregation. FEAR of not being whole souled. FEAR of disappointing your fellow believers. FEAR of saying or doing something that might tick someone off and having to turn yourself inside out apologizing for it for a millinium. FEAR of loss of blood family who won't speak to you if you did something that would cause discipline. FEAR of GOD, FEAR, FEAR, FEAR....it is a powerful tool the mind uses to keep it going. It is also so effective on a person's emotions that it can suppress immune systems...ever wonder why JW's are SO SICK all the time? Well the legitimate sick ones not just the ones who use being sick to get out of meetings and the ministry. FEAR...it is how we coped.

27

I can't understand why the Witnesses think that the entire World is evil

by JH in

jw
friends

in their black and white world, the jw's think that everything that isn't jw is evil.. every day, i visit my dad at a nursing home, a place where dying people go, and i see so many good people, many volunteers, helping out the sick and dying.

witnesses may preach and know their bible better than the average person.

but i prefer people who don't know their bible as well, but have a heart and donate to the poor or help the sick and have compassion.. maybe one day when the average age of witnesses will be higher, maybe they will start to understand that there is more than preaching.

mama bear

True, JW's know their Bible better than the average person.

That in itself causes them serious problems:

John 5:38-40 You don’t have His word living in you, because you don’t believe the One He sent. You pore overthe Scriptures because you think you have eternal life in them, yet they testify about Me. And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.

Thank you Honesty for this! As I read the thought that the 'JW's know their Bible better than the average person' my thought was 'underscore 'their Bible'' and quoting from rote with misapplication and misinterpretation is not the same as proper exegesis. Someone somewhere did a count of the verses the JW is intimately familiar with and it was pretty interesting. It is somewhat like a vocabulary...we all have one but some of us have a more restricted one than others and can converse with ease usually with ones who do not have larger vocabs. We may recognize words, maybe even know their definition but do not use them often. The rote verses the JW's use do not compare with some of the vastly researched folk who are not Witnesses. In fact, I was humbled when I started attending church here to find out how much I honestly DID NOT KNOW about the Bible because it was not relative to the JW belief system! Believe me, my hand was up often during WT study and Book study. I wasn't uncomfortable answering questions...but then again, there in lies the problem...it was a WT and Book study not a BIBLE study,

Anyway, the evil most religions create as a means to keep their membership in line is actually a fascinating study.

I am so evil these days I enjoy voting, hanging out our flag, discussing politics and religion, celebrating [not observing] holidays, freedom of speech and thought, full association with any person I desire regardless of their personal, religious, moral beliefs, of learning about things from intelligent sources, tattoos, watching people really enjoy life, attending funerals and weddings in churches, going to church [I'm a holiday Christian] saying God Bless YOU and meaning it, learning about other philosophies and teachings, not caring who sees me going to an R rated movie..actually, not even looking at ratings anymore, oh and yes, the most evil of all, talking about my former beliefs while wearing the Big RED A with unabashed pride!

44

Does God have any one organized religion he supports?

by general in

jw
friends

this is an open ended question meant to iniate a debate.. .

general .

mama bear

The General -- I am struggling with this question as a result of my decision to delve deeper into the bible and my desire to truly ascertain the connatations of its verses. I have heard people on a regular basis in school call organized religion a sham and the belief in a God a sham. These are the very same people who glorify rationalistic reasoning based upon a materialistic philosphy as being surpreme. To me this view is one of arrogance and the many philosphers one reads such as Marx and Rousseau only present their views in terms of idealism. Even so, I can't see how people could even begin to hold such a view in the first place if one were to think abstractly about it, therefore, how can imperfect man produce perfect solutions would they not be inherently imperfect as a reflection of his own imperfect state?

I am really hung up on God's use of a faithful and discreet slave and the many biblical examples of using sherpards to manage his flock (Such as the apostle Paul overseeing the Christian congregations in the Meditterrean Region) on earth as shown by Matt. 24:45. To me this shows us that God does have an organization here on earth.

Does anyone have any insight they would like to share on this matter?? --

You know, it is good that you are still 'thinking' and now are free to employ 'critical' thinking as you struggle with what feels right for you. Having spent 3 decades as a Witness I am comfortable in my own feelings that 'organized' religion or 'religion' which exists for control of anyone for that matter is not for me. I believe in Christ, in the Father and very much in the Holy Spirit. I believe it is clear as to how we are guided if we seek out, if we ask, if we knock, if we have faith, if we believe, if we hope. If you are seeking guidance from the Holy Spirit and are using the Bible and are willing to let God teach you and not man then you will be led to where it is comfortable and feels right for you. You may need more years in life to see that even with the best of intentions when you get a group of people together for any purpose and must impose rules in order to maintain order you will find those who seek to abuse the power the rules sometimes can be twisted to convey. With God you don't have to worry about that because it is a given that HE is the rule maker, enforcer, and the one who impositions the consequences of not meeting the rules. But, unlike us, HE is in a prime position to guide us away from places where we would fall into temptation to abuse the system, where HE can teach us through HIS loving, gifting and patient ways to come to HIM for guidance and to rely fully on HIM for the corresponding answers we seek. HE is not harsh as mankind has demonstrated themselves to be or as man has painted HIM to be for that matter. Yes, HE is a Judge, but John plainly states in 1 John 4 that the kind of love that is love of God is free from fear and definitely from fear of reprisal. Perhaps the single most detrimental thing the WTS is guilty of is the concept of God they pummel into their members by picturing HIM as some demerit keeping, judgemental King who is tapping his fingers impatiently waiting for some cosmic clock to tick down so he can anihilate the world and exercise his wrath over it! Yet, Peter says God is patient not wanting any to perish. The FDS have their flock cowering in mortal fear while Jesus has HIS arms outstretched in invitation to COME UNTO HIM! The WTS is the antithesis of the God of the Bible yet very representative of the destructive force 'organized' religion can wreak. If that is not enough, look at the 'radical' elements of other organized religions and how they are meting out their own idea of justice for alleged infractions of their organized religious beliefs. And they too claim to all live by the 'word' of their 'holy writings'. Even where the religion seems benevolent enough the people wind up living in such distress because of their religious beliefs the standard of living is sub-standard! I honestly cannot see a single philosophy out there that stands out as exemplary of what most people would immediately recognize as 'good' in all aspects and in all ways. It just doesn't exist.

I abhor religion and especially organized religion. I believe there are some benefits to the various organizations but there are humanitarian organizations who do as much as 'religious' ones and civic groups who acccomplish as much as churches do all over the US and I am certain in other countries as well. Looking at the corruption which naturally follows power it is naive to believe there will be any organized church or religion which will be beneficent, altruistic, or philanthropical 100 percent of the time with no malice, with no self serving, with no greed ever present. As they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely! We have seen it in bodies of elders in congregation after congregation in imitation of the governing body ... and in the leadership of other churches. It is not unique to the WTS.

Paul was a good Christian, no doubt about it. But, he was a pharisee for much of his life and let's face it, they were known for their 'rule' making and their 'organization'. He was not only the apostle to the nations he was a grand organizer, a man with a gift to get people to do what he felt they should. He was obviously a leader. The man for the job at the time. Jesus' on the other hand...a real study in how you draw people to you. Give, give, give! Ask nothing in return but to do the same. The extent of his rule making was to have us love God with everything we have and to love our neighbor as we love ourselves. The extent of his organization was to share and share alike. Do unto others ... He was willing to do the hard stuff so that we could have life and that eternal. I figure I should take HIM up on HIS offer to 'follow HIM'. He knows the hierarchy and how it works and has the power and authority to accomplish for us what we need in life, now and forever.

My thoughts,,,,,

101

Strange picture In J W publication

by BluesBrother in

.this "new world scene " is from p 190 of the "bible teach " book dated 2005.. it is just a joke.

they have transformed their key belief into a cartoon type kiddies scene.

is there no thought of child safety?

mama bear

-- In the new system:..Elephants will have seat belts on thier head,so kids don`t fall off..You can pet lions and all the lions will have beach balls(Must be new light)..And there will be baskets of fruit everywhere..The fruit baskets will have blueberrys..In the new System you can talk to blueberrys anytime you want,not just when your drunk..Anybody who isn`t white has to live in a grass hut..Have I missed anything,about this wonderfull place called the New System?...OUTLAW --

Yup! You forgot the whole "Li'l House on the Prairie" hanging clothes on the clothes line. pick axe and hoe tending the gardens producing those fresh veggies and fruits, the New World Laura Ingalls all dressed in their layers of 'feminine garb' with mindless grins on their faces. The sitting around in rattan furniture [Greatest Man] with bearded men who look suspiciously like the Greatest Man elsewhere in the book feeding dates to little girls with grinning faces while the background looks like an imaginary set from Fantasy Island. If it were any other religion I'd say the grinning man feeding little girls would be innocuous enough but considering who we are talking about....I dunno...

Again, while the pictures hold a lot of power in the mind of the JW, it is how they are trying to leverage these pictures at the doors of unsuspecting folk that is the real horror. These people take the bait [the pretty photo] gobble the hook [free home Bible Study] and then when they are all over and done with -- baptised and full member of the congregation -- the pretty picture fades and what is left is the horror film which has become their life in this 'spiritual paradise'! If they manage to escape they are marred and such beauty as the bait presented winds up becoming emotional and psychological triggers! They then remember pictures of people fleeing burning bombed out looking towns where they had lived -- death strewn all about. Of having dreams of not surviving armageddon because they could only do the national average in 'field service' time and someone said that wasn't the same as 'whole souled' devotion!

But the spin masters in the PR department are a talented bunch indeed .. they keep pumping this stuff out and getting it out there in the hands of folks and still they see gullible folk step on over into their world! Less and less to be sure...I am thinking that perhaps there should be some "memorial' to former Witnesses site somewhere that we can all go to and manifest our own annual 'service reports' to see which countries are seeing annual peak exodus numbers! How many 'detox' ministries exist where ones who have been out for awhile nurtures those who are leaving, Sort of a reverse free home study. How many are disassociating or are being disfellowshipped. How many are 'partaking' of their various freedoms. How many attend the various functions held all over like the ExJW conventions? Do 'life stories' of those who share their experience in and their release from the Org. Ya know, our own sort of Year Book with statistics..

101

Strange picture In J W publication

by BluesBrother in

.this "new world scene " is from p 190 of the "bible teach " book dated 2005.. it is just a joke.

they have transformed their key belief into a cartoon type kiddies scene.

is there no thought of child safety?

mama bear

BluesBrothers asks: -- Would any "Bible Study" be able to put faith in the reality of a coming New World when it is 'sent up' like this? --

Issues with the pictoral representation aside, it is the 'allure' of living in a world seemingly free of the everyday cares of the world that continues to snag the unwary, or at least those who live in a world where this sort of thing would be appealing. I am thinking, how does this really appeal to the divergent lifestyles and beliefs of people around the world? Even in Indonesia where elephants are used as beasts of burden and people live close by the water, their belief system does not lend itself to this message. And the WTS idea that their literature is produced to appeal to the 'honest hearted' the 'ones worthy' of their message is the subtle answer to the question that while they try and have folks on in their pictures from nations, tribes and tongues what is lost in the translation is that in many of those natons, tribes and tongues 'paradise' is a very different place.

I would imagine soon enough it will be strictly those who live in the carefully created and controlled world of the WTBTS that will longingly look upon these pictures as representative of their idea of paradise. The dynamics in the world just do not support this!

Listening to an interview with folks who live in Iran on the news today they are so caught up in their own lives they do not even have a clue what is going on politically because of governmental censureship. Same with North Korea and many other countries. The general populace would never be able to see these kinds of pictures and if they did how would it be appealing..for instance in some areas of Africa where the elephant is considered a threat to their very existence? I don't mean to sound negative...but what may be a neat scene for me the 'whole wild animals at peace with mankind and beautiful pristeen scenery as the backdrop' may be comedic if not outright insulting to others.

Alas...the brainwashing just would not be complete if the collective imagery experienced by all Witnesses worldwide were not the same scene!